Episode 32: Lisa Gray, LMFT
Lisa Gray, LMFT: We're having an argument. I already know what I want to happen and you already know what you want to happen. So, it's so easy to start trying to convince you from the get go, like what, to come over to my side of the thing, but we aren't really understanding each other. We're not really listening to each other. So, we're trying to come up with solutions to a problem. We don't even understand.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to What Your Therapit is Reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. On today's episode, we are speaking with Lisa Gray, LMFT, about her book, Healthy Conflict, Happy Couple: How to Let Go of Blame and Grow Stronger Together. Lisa Gray, LMFT, is a couple’s therapist in private practice in the San Francisco Bay Area, specializing in high conflict couples and chronic pain illness.
Lisa is passionate about teaching couples to practice healthy conflict so that their relationships can thrive and grow. Lisa reads over 100 books a year and reviews self-help books on her Instagram, Therapy Book Nook. She lives in the Bay Area with her family and three large dogs. After today's episode, head on over to social media @therapybookspodcast to learn about the latest giveaway. And as always, the information shared on this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome back to what your therapist is reading. On today's episode, we are speaking with Lisa Gray LMFT about her book, Healthy Conflict, Happy Couple: How to Let Go of Blame and Grow Stronger Together.
Welcome Lisa.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Thanks for having me, Jessica.
Jessica Fowler: I'm excited to kind of dive into this, but we kind of talked before and I have this question that I like to ask. If we could start with what is a memory of reading and how it has impacted you?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Well, I read about 100 books a year. So, I get impacted by reading all the time. Um, but probably if I were to think about a book that was so impactful on my life, it would have to be The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris. That's kind of the basic primer for acceptance and commitment therapy. And it was just such a wow experience for me to read that book. And not only was it super helpful for me personally, but probably weaves its way through almost everything I say and do with clients.
Jessica Fowler: Um, I, I agree. I recommend that book too. It impacted me as well. I can totally see that. For our listeners who don't know what acceptance and commitment therapy is, can you just give a little, um, spiel about what that is since it is part of your book?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Sure. So, the idea is is for most of us, when we have uncomfortable emotions, the first thing we want to do is for that to go away or stop. And the idea behind acceptance and commitment therapy is just to be welcoming and accepting of every emotion that comes your way, whether that's a good emotion or a bad emotion, just letting those things flow. And then when it comes to behavior, you behave in a committed way according to the values that you've figured out the things that you value in life.
So, in this way, you're not just sort of kind of whipped around by your feelings that happened to or things that happened to you or the way that other people behave, but you're committed to behaving in a certain way, according to your values.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you. And so how do you weave this into this book? Let's kind of maybe talk a little bit about what's in this book and how that shows up.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah. So, I think one of the things that happens with conflict is obviously there's very high feelings going on. You know, everyone has high emotion and people are saying things that are maybe not even true, but even if they are true, they're things maybe you wouldn't normally be saying on a calm day. And so, it's very easy to get reactive. To start reacting to what the other person's saying, reacting to what the other person's doing, and not start behaving in a way yourself that isn't true to who you really want to be. So, if, if partners can kind of define what they want out of this conversation, what their goals are for this conversation, what kind of person they want to be in the conversation. Then you can start to have a more focused and intentional conflict that's going to get you to resolution, rather than what I hear all the time, which is we've arguing, we've been arguing about the same thing for 10 years, and we've never come to resolution. That's because you're not being intentional about your conflict. And so you're just reacting to whatever's happening in the moment, usually when something's happening already, which is just not a very good time to have a conflict.
Jessica Fowler: And so, when someone starts to read this book, the first section kind of talks about how to calm yourself first. Yeah. Can you share a little bit about that?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah. So, I think what happens even with most therapists is a couple will come in and you start immediately working on their conflicts. But the problem with that is that if you start with the topics of the conflicts or the conflict, you know, the content of the conflicts, and people don't know how to manage themselves, or they don't even really know how to understand why they're behaving the way that they're behaving, you're going to quickly, you know, escalate and get lost in, you know, that kind of emotionality.
So, I think before you even start with the roadmap that I've provided on the conflict, you have to back up and figure out where, what is my conflict style? Where did I get it from? What kind of traps do I naturally fall into? What happens to my body when I start getting worked up? How can I calm that down or keep it calm? How can I notice what's happening within me? What are my attitudes towards conflict? Are those conducive to a healthy conflict or not conducive to a healthy conflict? Once you get all that kind of background work done, you're going to have a much more solid, uh, foundation to follow the three steps that I'm providing for how to actually sit down and have a conflict, but you have to kind of do the background work first.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. That idea of being able to calm yourself. So, you can even think about how to even approach having this conversation because if you're heated, that's when we say things or do things that we wouldn't normally do.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: And also like kind of the, the creative problem solving part of your brain kind of goes offline when you start getting heated like that and then how are you ever going to come up with something that maybe Is some new creative solution you never even thought of before. You're not gonna do that when you're super upset. Mm-Hmm. .
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. One of the things I liked in this book, so you talk about that and you give suggestions on how to do that, and then you talk about the brain just like the understanding.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Mm-Hmm.
Jessica Fowler: This is actually what's happening when, you know, when you get heated. Right?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah.
Jessica Fowler: And this is why it's important to work on calming down, you know? Right. So, you can engage in that creative process.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah, and I mean, I think, you know, you don't have to be a neuroscientist to, to just kind of get a handle on this isn't your fault. There's, there's some neurological physiological things that are happening when you get upset. That's totally normal and natural, but also some of that can be either controlled or managed by methods that you put into play in your life on a regular basis and start practicing so that you're more aware of what's happening in your brain and body. And then you have a little bit more control over it.
Jessica Fowler: And so the second part of the book is sort of your steps. Can you share a little bit about what's in the second part of the book?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah, so I think step one is kind of the most crucial part because most couples I mean people ask me if you can only give one piece of advice to couples, what would that be, you know, and I always say stop arguing when you're already mad. So, the very first step is to set up your argument correctly. So, for most couples, I mean, none of us like conflict, let's be honest. You know, let's admit it. And so, the only time they have a conflict is when something sparks the match. You know, they're going along on a perfectly regular day, something comes up. It's probably an issue they've thought about many times or that they know they have already but they haven't been willing to talk about it. Now something lights the match and all of a sudden, you know, off to the race as we go. And that's not a, as we're talking about just physiologically, that's not a very good time to try to solve the conflict. So, the first step is to say, this is an issue that we have, let's set up a time to talk about it, when would you like to do that, Saturday morning, whatever, you know, and you set up a time and place so that you can sit down and intentionally have this conversation, both people know the topic, both people know when that's going to happen, no one's getting ambushed, everybody's calm, it's just setting you up already for a way more successful conflict.
And then the next two steps are the actual conversation. And what I find in my office is that people want to move way too quickly to solutions, which makes sense. I mean, if we're having an argument, I already know what I want to happen and you already know what you want to happen. So, it's so easy to start trying to convince you from the get go like what to, to come over to my side of the thing. But we aren't really understanding each other, we're not really listening to each other. So, we're trying to come up with solutions to a problem we don't even understand. So, the second two steps is that I break that conversation into two completely separate conversations in order to avoid that temptation.
So, the first conversation is only for understanding each other. So, I talk about how I feel about the issue. You read that back to me, like parrot it back to me till you understand what I'm saying. We switch places till I understand what you're saying. We validate anything that's possible to validate. And then stop talking, just stop having the conversation and set up the next appointment for the problem-solving conversation. But don't problem solve in that first conversation. Because I feel like once people who love each other really understand each other and get each other and then have a pause, that's the space where they're going to come up with something new. Because, you know, now there's some ideas starting to generate and germinate based on what you just learned.
So many times, people, couples are like, well, I didn't know that, you know, it's like, yeah, cause you never stopped to talk about it, you know? So, and then the last step is the problem-solving conversation, which, um, the, the main thing about that conversation is to not come to the conversation with just the two solutions, but for each person to come to the conversation with like five different solutions so that instead of just holding on to your one point of view, you can start to kind of bat around a whole bunch of different ideas and see if you can brainstorm your way into something more creative.
Jessica Fowler: What I was thinking about when I was reading this is I liked the breaks because I kept thinking of attachment styles. And right. If somebody is anxious or maybe there are people, pleaser, if you go right into that problem solving, you could be just agreeing to agree. And that's not what you want. And so, setting up this break, you can go and ground yourself, ground yourself before, and then come back and have this conversation again. Um.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Right.
Jessica Fowler: You know, to work on not doing that.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah. And also, avoidant people might agree just to get out of the conversation, you know, it's like, I just want out of this conversation. So, I'm going to say whatever it gets me out of this conversation, you know? So, I really think it, it appeals to all of the different attachment styles because there's enough of a structure that anxious people don't have to like wonder when that conversation is ever going to happen, or if it is, and people who are more avoidant know that like the conversation is going to be contained so, it's not going to just like leak all over the week and start coming up everywhere, you know, all the time. So, it's really helpful, I think, attachment style wise.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. It just seemed like a good way to practice that. They just wanted our people pleaser as an example, avoidant as an example, you know, just working on how to communicate with each other. And so, you both can, you know, in most circumstances, as you point out, can get something that will be helpful for both.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: And you, you also talk a little bit, I forget exactly what you call it, but this idea of, um, you know, when, when we're fighting, right, if there's like nothing sort of in the cup to go back to, how did you describe that? So, like, I like to a little bit.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: I like to describe it as like a bank account, right? So, so it's kind of like when you first meet someone, you have a million dollars in the bank. There's so much good stuff going on. And so, you might be having the same conflict you had back then. But back then you were writing a hundred dollar check and you had a million dollars in the bank, you know, now you've got nothing, you know, six or seven years later, you're still having that same conflict, but you don't really have anything to draw from.
And so sometimes if you're a couple that has a really bad conflict, you can't figure out the way to. Start is to start putting deposits in the bank, you know, get back to having fun together, spending time together, laughing together, having good conversations, because you need that. You need those positives in the bank. If you're going to draw from that, when you have conflicts and your conflicts will go better, because you're not going to say as many hurtful things to someone you just had a great time with yesterday. You know.
Jessica Fowler: I liked it in the book that you gave this example, because sometimes I think couples that can be really hard for them, right? So, they kind of have to make a choice to do that. And the one example you gave was, um, a partner coming home from work and sitting down at the counter and just asking their partner how their day was. Yeah. That was a great starting point for creating a deposit.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Absolutely. And sometimes with my couples, if it's a real stretch, you know, they can use things like, um, you know, table topics or chat packs or like books that are say like, you know, questions for getting to know anybody. Sometimes I, they just have to start with totally neutral topics because they've got, they've come so far from being able to talk to each other, but there's tools that, you know, you can use to do that sort of thing.
Jessica Fowler: So this really is kind of a how to guide.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah, that was my intent. I mean, there's lots of, I mean, obviously, you know, there's, there's so many relationship books out there and there's lots of chapter’s sections. And now there's even a couple of other books about conflict out there. And, you know, there's a lot of information. I mean, read all of it cause we have conflicts in all of our relationships. It's such an important topic, but I really wanted to write kind of a nuts and bolts, like do this. Then do this, then do this for people who just really have a hard time managing the flow of that conversation.
Jessica Fowler: Is that, so that's why you wrote the book?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah, I was actually looking for a book like that for one of my couples and I, I didn't want them to get lost in all the other information about relationships. I just wanted them to focus on, okay, here's how you conduct a conflict start to finish, and I couldn't find that particular book. So that's why I decided to just write it down.
Jessica Fowler: No, that makes sense. And it's an easy read. I should say that, like, it's not an overwhelming book because I think what you're saying is sometimes we can get lost in the theory or, you know, just a lot of information about relationships. And this is really very specific to how do you create healthy conversations and conflict without a relationship?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's a tough topic. So I tried to make it, you know, kind of fun and easy to read because I'm trying to make the point that conflict doesn't have to be so painful and heavy.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. What are you, what would you say are one or two takeaways you would like your readers to walk away with?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Oh, so one thing is I think the attitude shift that conflict can be a good thing is one thing that I really want people to understand, because most of us have a perception of conflict that it's bad, and if you really, really want to be intimate and close with someone you have to have conflict because you're two different people. And so, if you don't have conflict or you're afraid of conflict, you're drifting apart from someone cause you're not telling the truth, you know? And so, if you can shift your mindset, that conflict is good and you want to know these things about your partner, that's a great start.
And then secondly, that point of just really trying not to argue when you're already mad about something, even if you only did that one step, it would probably help immensely. Yeah.
Jessica Fowler: Who should be reading your book?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: You know, it's funny. My, my son is 18 and all of his friends read my book and none of them are married.
Jessica Fowler: Oh!
Lisa Gray, LMFT: I know. And I was like, I love that too, because I feel, I tell my kids, I'm like the information's out there. Like we know what makes relationships work now. We're not just guessing, you know, there's science out there. And so, get the information, learn the information before you're even in this situation. So obviously, you know, committed couples who are having conflicts should read the book, but also we have conflicts in our friendships and our families and, you know, at work, everywhere and so I think that anyone who feels like they have a little trouble when things get heated and wants some direction on how to actually navigate that could probably benefit from reading the book.
Jessica Fowler: I love that they read that not only because one rate 18-year-olds reading a book on conflict, but as a way to support you.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: It was very cute. Yeah. I love this generation. Yeah.
Jessica Fowler: I would also add therapists. I think it's a great way for them. You know, if it's just, you're gonna have couples. Show up in your office or, you know, your one side, you know, your individual, and you're hearing this like as a guide, here's something that can be helpful. It gives them an extra set of tools.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Absolutely. I mean, many therapists don't like to work with high conflict couples. And even if that's not your specialty, sometimes you have a couple and you don't realize they're high conflict till they're in your office, you know? And so, if you have a guide of like, okay, I'm going to walk them through these steps that can kind of help calm you as a therapist as well, and keep your anxiety under control as this couple is trying to navigate their way through conflict.
Jessica Fowler: Absolutely. Cause that's the whole other thing, right? Like as a therapist, you need to stay calm when they're getting escalated.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Yeah. We have our own physiology and our own conflict styles and yes, for sure.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, absolutely. Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast today. Where can our listeners connect with you?
Lisa Gray, LMFT: I'm on Instagram @LisaGrayMFT, and then there's links in my bio to all my other social sites and, and that, so you can just find me there and, uh, go from there.
Jessica Fowler: Awesome. Thank you.
Lisa Gray, LMFT: Thank you for having me, Jessica.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of What Your Therapist Is Reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway.
The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only. And although I'm a social worker licensed in the state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author
Lisa Gray, LMFT is a couples therapist in private practice in the San Francisco Bay Area, specializing in high conflict couples and chronic illness/pain. Lisa is passionate about teaching couples to practice healthy conflict, so that their relationships can thrive and grow. Lisa reads over 100 books a year and reviews self-help books on her Instagram, Therapy Book Nook. She lives in the Bay Area with her family and 3 large dogs.