Episode 70: Christina Cipriano, PhD
Christina Cipriano, PhD: The status quo or just the way it is, is this idea of waiting for children to fail in order to have access to different supports and services.
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to what your therapist is reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. We are closing out this season with Dr. Christina Cipriano. We are talking about her book Be Apologetically Impatient: The Mindset Required to Change the Way We Do Things. Christina Cipriano PhD is an associate professor of Applied Developmental and Educational Psychology at the Yale Child Study in the Yale School of Medicine and Director of the Education Collaboratory at Yale University. She's an award-winning scholar and internationally regarded expert in the science of learning and development, a prolific public scholar, educator, and speaker, Chris brings her positionality as a first generation high school graduate and mother of four children to her science and work. Although this is the last episode of the season, make sure you follow along on social media @therapybookspodcast to learn about the latest giveaway and when the new season drops in a few weeks. And as always, the information shared in this podcast is for informational and educational purposes only.
Welcome, Dr. Chris Cipriano.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Thanks so much for having me. Great to be here.
Jessica Fowler: Well, as our listeners know, I always start the podcast with this question. Can you share a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Absolutely. So, um, I'm a first-generation high school graduate. My dad went to school through eighth grade and so, um, it was a big deal for my siblings and I that we always had books in the house and there was lots of reading happening all the time. Um, and so one memory that jumps out to me is how important the book Strega Nona was to us as children. So we're, uh, Sicilian Americans and it's, um, about the Grandma Witch and Big Anthony. Her, um, her help. And the endless array of the spaghetti pot that she overflows the town with. Um, and so reading that and kind of, it had a cultural significance for our family as well as sharing that time together. And so, I, um, that book, you know, for all of my nieces and nephews, everyone's gotten Strega Nona for my children, it's, it's continued on intergenerationally for our family.
Jessica Fowler: Oh, that's so fun. It's like a family book.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Absolutely.
Jessica Fowler: Just pass it to everybody.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: That's fun.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Yes. Yes, a little bit of a mixed message at the end of the book though, because basically like the, um, the helper gets in trouble and so his way to save the town is to eat all the pasta. So, it's a little bit of a, you know, I don't want my kids to take that in and be like, yeah, no, no, no. We must, must eat it all and overflow yourself. But, um, the importance of Italian cooking, generosity, sharing, reading, like there's many themes in it that are quite resonant, um, to our life present day.
Jessica Fowler: My guess is you just have a conversation about that, so.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: absolutely.
Jessica Fowler: Well, let's shift and let's talk about your book Be Unapologetically Impatient: The Mindset Required to Change the Way We Do Things. It feels like a really important read right now. So ,let's kind of maybe just start there and share about your book.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Absolutely. So, um, you know, I had been thinking about writing the book for quite a long time, but what really pushed me to sit down and do it last year was, so I have, I have four children. It was when my, my middles, uh, Salvato and Eleanor, they started asking questions about kind of the way things were or the way it is in our everyday experiences in life. And it brought forward to me the idea that we had an opportunity to affect change. In everyday experiences that we have, applying the skills and strategies of, um, of learning science in the ways that we engage with one another. And so, um, if I can just kind of share a little bit about kind of our history and the kind of experience there within, and so. I, um, I have four children, um, three of whom have exceptionalities, one of whom has a rare disease, and the experience of moving through to arrive at a diagnosis for our son, our oldest son with his rare disease was, um, riddled with hurdles and barriers there within. And I, myself have, um, you know, a good degree of academic training in my kind of repertoire, my husband, um, as well. And we, we found the experience to be, um, just riddled with barriers. And basically every time you surpassed kind of one stage in the process, you were hit with another set of process and waiting and lines and barriers and, you know, there wasn't like somebody there to just help your child, right? So, you're kind of going through all of this and you're going through this cycle. And anyway, long story short, I, position and I think about this idea of, um, disability as a different vantage point from which you view the world around you and our son, and, you know, our other children as well have given us this gift of understanding and seeing the world a new way. And in the book what I talk about is that, you know, as parents, um, and as caregivers and as educators, there are moments throughout your life where you've been presented with so much new information that in many ways it's like putting on a new pair of glasses. You have a new way of seeing and understanding your world, and at that point you really can't unsee it. And so for us it was the positioning of and understanding the vantage point of disability and the barriers kind of embedded within in our everyday experiences. And, you know, there are policies and practices, but then there's like the everyday experiences of like, there is no ramp, there is no table, there is no bathroom, there is no changing room. Right. So practical all the way through to the way that we're treated. And so. That all said, when I was conceptualizing the book, I was really thinking about how we could help to support everyone, parents, educators, caregivers, therapists, doctors, medical practitioners, leaders, executives, um, business people to to acknowledge and to advantage their positionality as an opportunity to affect change. And so, what I mean by that is we are all wearing these different glasses in our everyday experiences and we have expertise to offer to situations so that we can address the way things are or the way things are done, or you know, the status quo and expectation there within. And so, as I go through the stories of the book, I share. Different sentence starters and science-based practices of what you can say and how to say it, what to listen for, to support everyone to be able to apply the science of learning in their everyday interactions to affect change.
Jessica Fowler: So can you give some examples? Well, the book has lots of examples, um, of your own personal story, but can you give us an example of what, either your story or example in general of what that could look like?
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. And so, um, as I move throughout the science of the book, I kind of layer in storytelling of experiences that my family and other families have had in kind of their everyday encounter. So, you know, waiting at the doctor's office or, you know, going through the referral process to acquiring, uh, a specialty device or procedure for one of our children, what it's like to, um, move through the public school system in receipt of servicing and support and helping to benefit your child. Um, and kind of experiences like that in the ways in which you can apply the science and what you say and how you say it. And so the first kind of big note is that I introduced the idea that when you hear the expression or the phrase, that's just the way it is. That's just the way we do things or you know, that's just the way they are. That this kind of dismissing of the experience and the status quo as like there's no other option is a signal to all of us that actually we have an opportunity here to, to kind of go a little further to ask why. And we can share our experiences in, um, you know, the ways in which we're engaging to show people that like, actually, you know what, the way this is isn't, um, isn't really helpful for, you know, my family isn't helpful for my practice, isn't helpful for my patient, isn't helpful for my student, and here's how. And so I go through kind of all the different ways you can frame and say to call people in, not out and support them to affect change and maybe for, um, some kind of context of the types of stories and experiences. One story that I tell in the book is regarding, um, our, uh, our oldest daughter and kind of our experiences to receiving, servicing in the public school system. And, you know, the, the status quo, or just the way it is, is this idea of waiting for children to fail in order to have access to different supports and services in the po. current public school models. And so I kind of work through all of the, what are the regulations there, what are the different policies and practices and what people kept saying to us along the way of just give them time and let them wait. Which, um, I know was very resonant for parents across the country in the experiences of moving through COVID 'cause our daughter started her kindergarten public school experience at our dining room table. Fully grown. And so, um, you know, the, the kind of presentations of and needs for additional support we're presenting as like, oh, it's every kid this year and give them time and you can wait. And there was this waiting that perpetuated the process and this idea that we should be patient and, you know, she and or others would just kind of eventually catch up. And really what that did was is that positions children like her to be further behind and have lost more learning in the process rather than kind of intervening earlier and often to support all kids to thrive. And so I walk through a set of stories there and kind of the ways in which we can help to support, um, increasing access and opportunities for all kids.
Jessica Fowler: So that was one of the chapters that I resonated the most with me, with my experience and this idea of wait to fail when it comes to reading. It's like, it's in my area it seems to be two years, like. And there's no research supporting that at all. None.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: Like why are we not doing what's best for the kids?
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Right. Right. And and you And Right. And so, you know, it's a, well, it's just the way, it's like this is the process. You do the paperwork, we wait, we evaluate, we see, we have to show a threshold, a certain level of failure before we intervene and you know, the question there is, well, why, why is it that way and how can it be different? What are some opportunities? And, um, you know, it, as I talk about in the book, it can take our lifetime to change a system and or to even change how a system sees each and every one of us. But we can each harness the power of our vantage point to interrupt the status quo right now we can. Teach people, we can show people like actually here, there's another way to see what you're describing to us. And it doesn't need to be indignant or blameful or calling people out, um, in a way that is, uh, creating an opponent. And rather you can do it in a way that is inclusive and respectful and leading with empathetic, um, inquiry to support all of us to kind of shift the way we see things. And so, you know, I, I, I anchor many of the stories in the vantage point of disability because that's been our experience. But I kind of talk across many different inter intersectionalities there within, you know, experiences of, um gender and language and income, race, and the ways in which, you know, certain experiences that that people have and the way things are done may not be the ways that are most beneficial or opportunistic, um, for everyone. And you know, the last thing I'll mention about the Waiting to Fail chapter. I, um, I draw the analogy, um, out of the school system to our daughter Luciana, our youngest. And, um, she was learning to ride, uh, her first two-wheeler at the time, um, that I was writing the book. And, you know, we get her first two wheeler and it comes with training wheels on it and the box says, you know, kids should be able to ride, ride their bike between the ages of, you know, four and six without the training wheels. And so she's like right in the middle. So, I could say that's probably when she'll learn to ride her bike or I could look to the models of her older siblings. My, my oldest miles was never, um, unfortunately had the gross motor to learn to ride a bike. My, um, son Salvato, um, was very, very cautious. Did not want the training wheels to ever come off of his first bike. So, you know, he basically waited till there were these little wings out the side of the bike to let us take them off. And then my daughter, Eleanor, just 15 months behind him, she was trying to get the, um, the training wheels off like right away. Like she actually, I have a, um, this photo of her, like she was using a bubble wand. I dunno if your kids have ever played with those, like those long bubble ones to try to actually like, use it as a tool to get the training wheels off. Like she just wanted to keep up with her brother. Right. And so. I could say, well, oh, um, you know, in our family we've had this range and so, you know, she might fall in the middle, but what I won't do with Luciana and riding her bike is I won't wait for her to fall and like, skin her knees and, you know, skin her hands to put the training wheels on. I won't wait for her to feel like, oh, she can't ride the bike and she's frustrated with the bike, or she's embarrassed that she's not able to be on the bike and, and feeling shame about the bike to put the training wheels on. Um, because you know, when we, when you know, pan back to the school systems, when we wait for kids to fail, sometimes that failure are experiences that they really just can never get back up from. Right. And we're not just talking about the academic declines or the loss of learning here. Those are those, so those experience of socialization experiences in their learning environments and the juxta. Juxtaposition there within, and so I'm hopeful that lessons like these will resonate with broader communities in ways to kind of begin to see things from a broader or differential lens, and then have some tools and strategies to begin to affect those changes in their everyday interactions.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. This is why I think the power of our own story is so important, right? When we think about what's happening and going on in our lives and our schools, our communities. If you are having a struggle with something like, this is my struggle and I want you to hear it because I'm in your community and like you know me so you know that this is a problem.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Mm-hmm. Exactly. And you know, on another note about this idea of you knowing me, um, in, in the book I talk about the importance of how you introduce yourself in an interaction. And so, um, you know, if you're coming forth as a, as a parent, you are, um, a parent or that parent. To that, you know, teacher, educator, um, doctor, medical professional, who you're speaking with. And, um, it, it, it's really, we have to, uh, to be very fair, it is no fault of that educator or that doctor.
Jessica Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Medical professional, you know, leader. Um, as we age as adults, right. We become more inward leaning, like our brain actually starts to trick us into these scripts of how we see and we, we fill in context for people, for, you know, what we would expect based on what we see and what we've learned over the course of our professional practice. Right? We could talk about this from the experience of, you know, being a psychologist and like that you have to have the, you know, intention to attend to overturn and override what your brain might naturally wanna do, which is to assume that you know, and so we know this, we know this. There's, you know, decades of psychology here. And so, um, what can we all do about it? Well, when I am in interactions and engagements, I, well, I I provide a whole like list of like, ways to introduce yourself, to contextualize, to humanize the, the situation or circumstance you're in 'cause sometimes it might be that they have decided because the way you're engaging is like, oh, you know, you filed a complaint or you request for a meeting, or you've been waiting for a long time to see this medical professional and you're finally there in the office and they may have a preconceived notion of who you are. And so introducing yourself, giving yourself an identity of who you are, who your, you know, child is. I talk a lot about this in the context of advocating for our children, like who the child is, humanizing that experience right away, or like, and taking an inquiry stance like. I, I have a question, like, thank you. Thank you for helping me, supporting me. Like we can learn through this together, um, through our exchange and I will make special note. The humanizing of ourselves and our children is especially important through the lens of disability. And so, our oldest son is medically complex with his rare disease and he uses a wheelchair now, and I talk about this just a little bit across the book, but I'll tell you, I could have written a whole book just of the stories and experiences of people talking passed my son about my son and never actually acknowledging that he is a child and rather just as a chair, like in engagements there within. And so really important to contextualize in the human connection and human experience right up front.
Jessica Fowler: That was one of the things that was another takeaway for me in that book. When you talked about this and you gave an example, I forget what it was, but how he likes and you were like talking
Christina Cipriano, PhD: mm-hmm.
Jessica Fowler: About the things he enjoys and
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Yes.
Jessica Fowler: Do that. And I was like, that's such a great way to about everyone that we're working with, it's so important.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Yeah. Yeah. 'cause sometimes we we're, we're tricked by what we see.
Jessica Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: And so, you know, or they may, they might, and in the case of Miles, you know, miles is, um, we're so very lucky that he's still with us and able to show us his joy with his smiling eyes and his big, like whole body smiles and joyful reactions, but his, his words have escaped him, right? So, they're his nonverbal and p people will kind of presume or assume that there's no, that he's not hearing you or he is not listening. But you know, when I introduce him into the conversation and say like, this is Miles and he loves Buzz Lightyear, and they see, I say, buzz Lightyear, and he is like, oh whole body reaction starting like, I'm hearing you and I'm here, and it, it shifts the conversation and even physically just getting down. So often when I've been in interactions regarding my children, I will, um, actually kneel down or kind of crouch down when having that conversation with that doctor, teacher, leader, executive. I gave some, you know, some theme park examples of places we've been on vacation, you know, flight attendants, et cetera. I will, I will bring them to our level. By making sure that I am leveling my children accordingly.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. You've done a lot of advocacy for your kids. It's impressive.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Thank, thank you. Thank you.
Jessica Fowler: What would you suggest as parents, as community members that we can do differently or add to what we're already doing to be more inclusive?
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Absolutely. So, I think, um, you know, starting with the end in mind, who are you trying to be inclusive of? And starting with them, bringing them is in as partners so that they can show you what it is or what it means to be inclusive in that space. Right. Are we talking about the type of music that's at the school event or the decorations that are up, or the food that is served or that there's, you know, wide enough ra, you know, spaces for wheelchairs and other mobility equipment. Like what, what is it that is inclusive? And kind of start with the communities, with the fa, with the families in your community that are either the li most likely to feel excluded or be excluded. And in some communities around the country, right, they are operating, they're operating in exclusion of the community because it's, you know, been deemed as like a not safe space to engage, right? We know that there are parent groups around the country that, you know, have decided, well, their school system is not benefiting their kids. And so, they're kind of operating outside of it or outside of that broader community or context, um, as a function. And so, starting with who are those families and what are, what do they need? What are they asking for? Bringing them in as partners I think is a really kind of important way. Um, one other note I would make is that in, in the book I talk about the science of communication as you're making these interactions and engagement, and I draw the parallel to thinking about the ways that you are, you know, what is it like to call somebody in, to bring somebody in with you as opposed to calling someone out. And so, you know, calling someone out, um, it can be like, you know, you're getting loud or you're, um, being aggressive or assertive in a way 'cause you're really upset 'cause these are things that elicit like. Big emotions. Right? And you know, it, it can sometimes land for people like akin to putting your headphones on and the music being like way up and you can't really hear anything or like the teacher in Charlie Brown when she's like, you know, wah wah wa and like, the kids don't know which Shel cartoon, like what she's saying and the reason for this is that when you position somebody as a, an opponent in the, you know, the first interaction with them, they are no longer listening to learn from you. They're listening to win in that circumstance. And so, you know, what can you do? What can you understand about your, you know, affect how you are engaging to help to, um, you know, downregulate yourself so you can invite them in and I, and I bring that to bear in this conversation 'cause I know I have met some really incredible allies and partners and families along the way. And sometimes that gut reaction is to wanna get really loud and be like, you know, and, and, and it's blameful and it's assertive, aggressive. It's calling out. It's, you know, a lot of what you see on social media and, uh, in many, many spaces and places right now, especially in the United States. That does not create community, it does not create partnership. It positions as like self and other, it positions opponents. And system change is not going to happen by othering. And so especially when we ourselves are, you know, starting the interaction by, by having been positioned as the other, right? So, um, just really thinking about the ways and the nuances there and the small things that we can say and do to, um, with intention. To bring each other in and share perspective.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, I definitely agree with that. Can I add something to that?
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Absolutely, please.
Jessica Fowler: I would say two kind of things. One for that person who's feeling that way, so in this scenario, maybe say like a parent who's advocating for their child, to, if you've had this experience, to really do that self-care or check in with yourself, 'cause sometimes that comes from a place of the experience previously has maybe been traumatic to you. Right. Like when you're advocating and it's been one, a person after another, after another, after another who's, you know, denying services or whatever's happening. So, to recognize that maybe there has to be some deeper work so you can get to that place where you can go in that room and create a situation where your allies instead of pinning one against each other. And I say that on the flip side for providers to understand that sometimes when people are acting this way, it may be a response to what's previously happened to them.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Absolutely. Absolutely. And I, and I share, um, you know, at least for every one time that I've done something right, I share at least one, if not two times in the book for things I've done wrong, things I am not proud of. You know, but in that moment it was where I was at. It was acknowledging the kind of deprivation that I had in the experiences of trying to support my kids and keep them healthy, keep them safe, and um, you know, that level of exhaustion. And so, you know, it's, it's not, none of us are perfect here. And, you know, hopefully here people leave after reading the book with a set of strategies and skills that they can employ. In, um, in real time. I know I was talking with, um, a group that, uh, just did a, um, an early book study on my book, and they were talking about how it really resonated for them when I was talking through like, all the ways that we use, I'm sorry, when we're asking questions.
Jessica Fowler: Mm-hmm.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Like how, how we apologize across. And they were like, I can't unsee it now. I can't unhear it. I hear it. I see it, I hear it in myself all the time when I'm working with students, when I'm talking with their parents, when I'm talking with the school leader. And so, you know, it's a, okay, I'm, I can attend to this now I have the intention to wanna shift it to, you know, empathy and gratitude and here's the words to use, here's how to try to make those, the regular scripts that we engage in instead of the, I'm, you know, I'm sorry, uh, for asking a question, which, um, is not a productive path forward.
Jessica Fowler: It happens all the time.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: All the time. All the time.
Jessica Fowler: It's like just part of a vocabulary that 100% we need to
Christina Cipriano, PhD: mm-hmm.
Jessica Fowler: Be aware of and change.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Absolutely.
Jessica Fowler: Who would you say your book is for?
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Parents, educators, care providers, medical professionals, so anyone who's engaged in kind of broader li uh, broader caring professions. And then, um, I've also, um, received feedback that from like c uh, the C-suite, like business executives, that it provides another angle and perspective in of the applications of emotional intelligence, um, in their staff, clients, um, and service providers. So, I really did, um, seek to write. My love letter to our generation for everyone, and I do hope that everyone will see themselves in the stories and the opportunities to affect change.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, I think it was a good combination of like stories, like how this applies and here are things that you can do and you can apply it to situations that either you've encountered or you know, people who've encountered. And I think it's important too for all of us to understand that we could do things differently.
Christina Cipriano, PhD: Thank you. Thank you so much.
Jessica Fowler: Well thanks so much for coming on the podcast today. Where is the best place for our listeners to connect with you?
Christina Cipriano, PhD: So, you can, um, connect with me, um, through my website at drchrissipp.com and I'm also very active on Blue Sky and LinkedIn.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Thank you so much. Thank you for listening to this week's episode of what your therapist is reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only, and although I'm a social worker licensed in this state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author:
Christina Cipriano, Ph.D., is an associate professor of Applied Developmental and Educational Psychology at the Yale Child Study in the Yale School of Medicine and Director of the Education Collaboratory at Yale University. An award-winning scholar and internationally regarded expert in the science of learning and development, Dr. Cipriano received her Ph.D. from Boston College, her Ed.M. from the Harvard Graduate School of Education and undergraduate degree from Hofstra University. A prolific public scholar, educator, and speaker, Chris brings her positionality as a first-generation high school graduate and mother of four children to her science and work.