Episode 69: Khara Croswaite Brindle
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Clinicians like the comfort of structure, and so when you say that, that's why I'm smiling. I'm like, oh, yeah. That's also why we all seek out training is we want answers. We also want like a roadmap of like, how do I do this? How do I heal? How do I handle this?
Jessica Fowler: Welcome back to what your therapist is reading. I'm your host, Jessica Fowler. Today's episode is for the mental health professionals out there. I will add a trigger warning to this episode as we will be talking about suicide. Today we are speaking with Khara Croswaite Brindle about her book, Moving From Alert to Acceptance: Helping Clinicians Heal from Client Suicide. Khara Croswaite Brindle MA LPC is a TEDx speaker, consultant, licensed mental health therapist, professor and financial therapist in Colorado. She has served as a dedicated suicide assessment trainer and speaker both nationally and internationally since 2017. And after today's episode, please head on over to social media @therapybookspodcast to learn about the latest giveaway.
Welcome, Kara, welcome to the show today.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Thank you. I'm happy to be back.
Jessica Fowler: Yes, it is so good to see you again. I am so happy you're coming on to talk about this important topic that we are going to talk about today. But I wanted to start with the question that I've been asking, and that is, can you share a memory of how reading has impacted you?
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Yeah, I think the first memory, um, I'm gonna show my age here, but like I loved the Goosebump books as a kid and I have memories of just like sitting in a chair all day reading book after book after book. And so, I love a reading started young and now I see that in my daughter who's two and a half at the time of this recording. So, it really just shows that there are other worlds, other possibilities. I love that reading helps people find new perspective and like curiosity about things. So whether it's Goosebumps or this heavier topic we're talking about today, it does open up people's minds a little bit to read, and I love it.
Jessica Fowler: Nice. So you're actually not the first person to say that. That book was one of the books.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Really?
Jessica Fowler: Yes.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: That whole series of like, these are just like easy to read now as a, as a therapist who's been through burnout, I can't read heavy stuff anymore. Like, not like that. I mean, those books weren't heavy. They were pretty benign for a kid. Like I can't watch like murder shows or listen to murder podcasts or anything. So, I'm a different human now. But back then it was all exciting. It was all new. It was all different than my life.
Jessica Fowler: I get it. So we're gonna talk about your book today, Moving from Alert to Acceptance: Helping Clinicians Heal From Client Suicide. And so, before we get into your book, I just wanna put a disclaimer, a trigger warning for those that this is for clinicians in the community and also that we will be talking about suicide. And so we're gonna talk about your book, moving from Alert to Acceptance: Helping Clinicians Heal from Client Suicide. So Khara, what made you decide to write this book?
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Well, I mean it's, it becomes really apparent when people pick it up that this is my lived experience as a professional. I have been a mental health therapist for almost fifteen years and my client died by suicide in 2021. And so at the time that she died, I knew I'd known for years that she might be one of the clients that I lose to suicide. It's just this weird gut intuition thing that I go to in the book, and I immediately started writing about her because I wanted answers. I wanted to heal. I had this life altering event happen, and I knew that I wanted to write her story in some regard, obviously de-identified for a book. Um, I am a suicide loss survivor personally before I was 18 years old. So, like, I think a lot of these things catapulted me into a mental health profession to begin with. And so, wanting to write a book, but also recognizing there wasn't a book out there on this topic. The one book I found was in 2005, and it was literally half an inch in width. Like, here's all the things you do to cover yourself. Here's how you protect yourself. Couple research studies that happened way back then, but there was not a lot of information of how does this impact you and how do you heal from it, and how does leadership help you? And that's what this book is all about, is those three parts.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Can you share a little bit about each and what happens when you pick up this book?
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Yeah. So, for folks that decide to pick it up, the first part or part one of the book is suicide assessment. So, when I was in graduate school, we had one hour of training on suicide assessment, and it basically said hospitalized, and this was back in 2010. And so, I didn't go into the field prepared for the conversations, the heartfelt conversations of clients saying, I'm in pain and I want this to stop. Which is really what suicide's all about. It's about pain. It's not about death, it's about pain that feels inescapable. So been assessment trainer since. I put a little acronym together, which is what this first part of the book's all about, and helping people understand what to ask, how to be compassionate, how to hold yourself in check and go there because if clinicians can't go there, why would we expect our community members to go there? In part two, I have led the reader through three clients and having, I kind of make them guess, which one dies by suicide because all three of them are in mental health crisis throughout the book. And in part two, it's okay, it's happened. One of them has died. And what do you do about that? So, I talk about the grief, I talk about what it does to our physical and emotional wellbeing. I talk about healing strategies and then I talk about what to say and what not to say to this human who's lost someone to suicide. And I think that was my own love letter to the community of like, please don't make this worse by what you say or don't say. So, for the mental health leadership or the loved ones around them, I just wanted them to have some information of like, this is where, how this lands as a therapist, survivor, or clinician survivor. And so, the book is chockfull of a lot of emotional information as you've gathered, having read it yourself.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. A couple pieces stick out to me. And so, one of them is, when I was reading this, you were talking about some of the symptoms that can come up for clinicians. Can you share a little bit about that?
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: And especially 'cause your audience is a bunch of different kinds of people. I want listeners to know that these symptoms could apply to you. Like it's not just specific to clinicians. I think the human experience of grief is what I've tried to capture here. So, there's an acronym from my colleague Alex Castro Croy, that's perms like perm as in perm of your hair. Um, P stands for physical. E stands for emotional. R stands for relational. M stands for mental, and S stands for spiritual. And I break all that down. So the physical symptoms might be things like irritable bowel syndrome, not being able to sleep, having anxiety, muscle tension, headaches, things like that. Obviously, not that people have a unique experience, I want it to normalize this might be part of it. Emotionally it's things like hypervigilance and anxiety and worry and shame and guilt that are huge when we lose someone to suicide, whether you're a community member or a professional shame and at the top of the list with anxiety. Relationally, maybe we withdraw. I talk in the book about the term confidential grief, which is we can't talk about suicide when it happens, and so are we withdrawing from our loved ones? Are we saying I'm fine, I'm good. All is well, even though it's not because we don't wanna go there, we don't wanna get into it. A colleague just this week said, I can't have someone ask how I am because I'm gonna break down. So, I really just want them to like skate along the surface. Pretend like I'm fine because I'm at work. Uh, mentally it might be things like questioning our abilities. Maybe we have, uh, as a mental health professional within hours of learning that a client's died by suicide, there's research as of the last year that says, no matter what the circumstance, within an hour, we question if there's something we could have done and we make it our responsibility. So, it's the, what did I miss? Kind of question that comes up. No matter what happened for the client, within an hour we take ownership, which is wild to me. And then spiritually it might be things like existential crisis. What's the meaning of life? Can I even help anyone? Everyone's gonna die. I mean, like, it just depends on what end of that spectrum you live on. But all of that is pretty normal when I interviewed colleagues who'd had this happen.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. And when I was reading that section, I think, I think you put this in there. A lot of it I was thinking, well, these are a lot of PTSD symptoms that's gonna come up. And that's true, right? Clinician, the general public that if you have someone who has gone or that if you've, if you are survivor of a client suicide, then these are things to be aware of that could happen.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Yeah. I mean, in that 2005 book that I found trying to find answers for myself in the healing journey, they said there was a study that said on average three to six months of PTSD symptoms for a clinician that loses a client to suicide. And so, when I asked people it was a month to like two years. I mean, there's a whole scale, like, you know, range here. Um, but just to even normalize, like you'll have PTSD symptoms is a big deal because people are like, oh, I'm supposed to be fine. Right? Like, you and I know that there's no timeline on grief, and yet people expect us to be fine within a year.
Jessica Fowler: Mm-hmm. And the other part that I wanted to highlight were some of the things that you can say. You had things in there that maybe not to say, which I think apply to other people to not necessarily clinicians. There were some good feedback of what to say. Can you share maybe a couple things that were helpful to you?
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Yeah, so I think one of the most powerful ones, and this comes with a disclaimer of like, don't suggest this if you're to go there, but a powerful question is, do you wanna talk about it? 'cause from a confidential grief lens, not only can we not talk about it because it's like confidential, as in client work, it's the stigma attached to it of, oh, I was responsible for that human. Now I'm messed up. I've made a mistake and I don't wanna talk about it. So having someone who's willing and open to talk about it when everyone else is like, I can't handle this, I can't hold for your grief, I don't know what to say. Um, that's a big deal to say. Do you wanna talk about it? My personal favorite in interviewing colleagues about their loss. What can I do for you at the one year anniversary, which is so huge. Like, I wish somebody had asked me that when my client died, because the first couple months, the people, I felt pristine to tell, Hey, this happened. They were checking in, how are you? What can I do? Do you need anything? But at the year mark, our body remembers this horrible event that happened. Maybe it's somatic, as in we feel something sensory of like, I get a headache, I feel depressed, lethargic, fatigue. Or maybe the date hits us. 'cause it's like seared in our brain, having someone we know be like, Hey, what can I do for you on the anniversary? Do you wanna go out? Do you wanna stay in? Do you want me to cover for you? Do you want the day off? I feel like that would be a huge healing component for people just to think ahead at year.
Jessica Fowler: Mm-hmm. In here too, you had some healing journeys from, so you interviewed clinicians in the book and shared some other stories, and I really liked how you incorporated what they did to heal. And a lot of them went into basically like some advocacy work and some training around suicide, which I thought was amazing.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Yeah. Yeah. I, I had it said to me earlier this year that clinicians like the comfort of structure. And so, when you say that, that's why I'm smiling. I'm like, oh yeah. That's also why we all seek out training is we want answers. We also want like the roadmap of like, how do I do this? How do I heal? How do I handle this? Was there something more I needed to learn? And so, I think there are readers who are picking up this book for those answers ahead of time, of like, I don't want this to happen, but if it did, what would my options be? And so, you know, I think the audience here is like, of course, also. Or even clinicians themselves who haven't had this happen. I was like, what would this look like? Worst case scenario.
Jessica Fowler: Mm-hmm. I feel like you give language to the clinician's experience through this book. 'cause you're right, it's not talked about and there isn't the support that maybe there should be, and so just even just bringing awareness that this is something that clinicians struggle with if it happens, right? It impacts 'em emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically, to have all of that happen.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and I think the community, you know, the community expects us as professionals to be helpful, right? We're professional helpers, and so the fact that I'm normalizing like, Hey, we're not okay when a client dies. Like we have an emotional investment in our clients. We care about our clients, of course, we're unfeeling robot, when we hear this tragic news that they've died by suicide of all things like, it feels like a whole different caliber than when a client dies suddenly in their sleep or a car accident. Like there's still grief there. There's still loss, there's still sadness, but this responsibility and ownership that clinicians automatically tack on of like, oh, I should have done something more. That's what I think makes it so much more painful for those folks, and I would like the community to know that.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Definitely. Anything else you would like your readers to know about the book?
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Yeah, I mean, I think my favorite part is capturing those clinician stories. So, you mentioned that a minute ago of like, I interviewed colleagues and then I de-identified and kind of hodgepodge together some of the stories that were shared so that they aren't one person's story. The favorite, probably most healing part as an author was writing the endings for some of these folks. Some of them are in the think of it. The people I interviewed are still healing. But I wrote the book as if they've healed or they are on their way. They're doing suicide prevention walks, they're training other people. They're in supervision or leadership roles. I don't know if that's actually gonna be their journey, but it was really actually kind of healing for me as the writer to write that be like, this is what I would want for them. This is what I would hope for for them. And so, I think the stories bring a personability into it that's not there of like, here's all the clinical jargon, but then, oh, here's the story of Jeremy. Here's the story of Annabelle. Here's the story of Alejandra. And so, people have reached out saying like, I really relate to one of these five therapists. I was likek how interesting. I didn’t expecting that to happen. It was one of the most enjoyable parts of a heavy, heavy book was to write their stories and then write this happy ending or happier ending.
Jessica Fowler: I would say too, just it is a heavy book. I would also say it's a short book and it's not written in clinical jargon. It's a, yeah, you can pick it up and like, I, I think you said this in the beginning or maybe when we were talking, like some can just read it right through and some, maybe you just need to pick up pieces, but it can be a useful tool to just naming the experience that awareness, like you said.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Thank you. I appreciate that feedback. And you know, I wanted it to be conversational. I didn't want to feel like I was talking down to anyone. I wanted to talk as if we were collaboratively in the room together.
Jessica Fowler:Mm-hmm.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: As if I was sitting alongside the reader being like, Hey, this may or may not be your experience, but can I normalize or validate what you're going through in any way? Because no one's doing that for you. So, it's like a safe container, right. Of like in a book form. I'm holding space for this person who's reading, hoping that they get something outta it.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah. Well, thank you. I appreciate all the work that you're doing, bringing awareness and healing to the clinicians out there. So, thank you.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: I appreciate it, Jessica. I know your audience is broad, and so hopefully if they were to pick up this book, it would be for finding answers on healing from suicide in any capacity, because I know this is not going away, but we have lots of people who've been impacted, so if it's not this book, maybe there's another resource out there for them.
Jessica Fowler: Yeah, and that can be part of the message. It's getting resources for yourself to heal.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: That's right. Mm-hmm.
Jessica Fowler: Well, thank you so much for coming on today. What is the best way for our listeners to connect with you?
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Uh, probably through Instagram. Again, my audience is therapists, so I recognize that some of our listeners here are not gonna wanna connect with me or need to connect with me. My website has all of my entrepreneurial projects on there as a mental health therapist, financial therapist and author. Um, so lots of ways people can connect. LinkedIn, Instagram, and my website are probably the top three.
Jessica Fowler: Wonderful. Thank you.
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT: Thank you.
Jessica Fowler: Thank you for listening to this week's episode of what your therapist is reading. Make sure you head on over to the website or social media to find out about the latest giveaway. The information provided in this program is for educational and informational purposes only, and although I'm a social worker licensed in this state of New York, this program is not intended to provide mental health treatment and does not constitute a patient therapist relationship.
About the author:
Khara Croswaite Brindle, MA, LPC, ACS, CFT is passionate about giving people aha moments that create goosebumps and catalyze powerful action. She is a TEDx Speaker, licensed mental health therapist, and financial therapist in Colorado. Khara enjoys various roles as a serial entrepreneur, 2x Amazon #1 Best-Selling Author, professional speaker, professor, and consultant. Khara specializes in helping therapists and financial therapists turn pain points into possibilities through consultation, courses, and supervision. She is originally from the Pacific Northwest and gets her best ideas walking outside and being around water. When Khara’s not writing her next book or supporting fellow professional helpers on their own self-discovery journeys, she enjoys spending time with her daughter, reading, and indulging in gluttonous, gluten-free desserts with her family.